Curse

Seraphim Angel · Jun 17, 2009, 05:04 PM // 17:04

I would agrue the point heros MADE this game for tons of people not Kill it. I know alot of people who would not be playing this game if it was not for heros. Yea they are not as good as actual players but they are almost 100% dependable and they wont just up and leave or go afk for no reason.

snaek · Jun 17, 2009, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by daesu

No, random pugs are not even close to the importance of guilds.

says you?

Quote:

And people can simply choose their guild members/friends and not bother with pugs too, so what?

If those who pug also have good guilds then they have nothing to worry about. If they dont belong to a good guild then I would wonder why not?

they could have done that before heroes were implemented, but they chose not to. many people still choose not to because now they have heroes.

again, your downplaying pugs as if a thing should not exist. its pointless to argue about the concern of pugs of dying when that person wants pugs to die.

Targren · Jun 17, 2009, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

again, your downplaying pugs as if a thing should not exist.

Ding ding ding ding. We have epiphany.

reaper with no name · Jun 17, 2009, 05:36 PM // 17:36

I still don't understand when people say that PUGs are dead. I don't usually have that much trouble finding them unless I'm on the international server. If all my experiences with PUGs have been during the "dead" times, then how chaotic must they have been back when they were alive? It must have been impossible to choose!

Gli · Jun 17, 2009, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

no i did not ignore it, see:

You did ignore it.

You said:
Quote:

i mean, unless your willing to argue that heroes have promoted more guild group activity to offset the balance of less pugging, then you simply can not say multiplayer has not died down.

I said:
Quote:

You're ignoring one possible scenario: more and people have congregated into guilds over time, leading to many if not most of the dedicated playerbase who do care about multiplayer playing exclusively in guild groups. Heroes or no heroes.

The difference is, you're saying heroes might have promoted more guild group activity. I'm saying it happened regardless of heroes. You can't blame heroes for that. It makes no sense. Guilds formed because they allowed more reliable play, heroes or no heroes.

Daesu · Jun 17, 2009, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

says you?

Guilds are alot more important than random pugging. Just look at how many in-game features are centered around guilds and alliances and look at how many in-game features are centered around random pugging. Where does ANet spend resources at?

Quote:

they could have done that before heroes were implemented, but they chose not to. many people still choose not to because now they have heroes.

People choose not to random pug because they belong to good guilds too or they socialize and make friends online. So what is your point?

Quote:

again, your downplaying pugs as if a thing should not exist. its pointless to argue about the concern of pugs of dying when that person wants pugs to die.

I am not saying random pugging should die. I am saying that as a feature, they are less important than guilds/alliances and team playing, even heroes.

The original cry from anti-hero posts has been "QQ I can't find human players to pug with because of heroes". Well they cant find human players to pug with because of guilds/alliances and friends list too so why dont they QQ about that?

Besides, why can't these people find other human players to play with? If they aren't in a good guild, and they like to play with other humans, then they should take the effort to find one rather than QQ about heroes here. If they can't find one because they are so much of a jerk that they have been kicked out of guilds after guilds, then all the more you shouldn't be advocating FORCED partying with such people.

Targren · Jun 17, 2009, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Well they cant find human players to pug with because of guilds/alliances and friends list too so why dont they QQ about that?

Then they'd have to accept that it's because no one wants to play with them, rather than blaming it on a technology issue.

UnChosen · Jun 17, 2009, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Thankfully in GW2 the grouping seems to be more WoW like (as in no grouping at all), with open world...the only way to have a multiplayer game is to make it so people interact in such a way where it doesn't involve any cooperation. So in the next game all the anti-social can go their merry way while still being forced to "group" by having to see other players' ugly characters....win-win.

Bryant Again · Jun 17, 2009, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

i might have made my posts short and simple, but you guys take things too literally; its all about degrees. when the op asked if heroes killed guild wars, obviously guild wars isnt literally "dead"; so when i said heroes turned gw into a "single-payer" game, obviously it isn't literally that either. you can not, however, deny that heroes have headed gw into that direction.

Only if you can point to it.

Personally, I'm finding other things to point to: the mass of the PvE world, the limitations of the party search system, the general aging of the game, and how unforgiving mistakes can be.

Not only that but where are statistics of people who usually use henchmen and solo anyways, of people who have moved from grouping to pugging, and people who were largely inactive before heroes came out?

I think this thread is one of many good examples of how ANet can make pugging with "newbies" less discouraging. They need to make being unskilled less of the killing blow in GW2 than it is in GW1.

DreamWind · Jun 18, 2009, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Since I am one of the few people saying heroes contributed to the downfall of Guild Wars, let me make myself more simple and clear.

All this crap about Pugs and Guilds is irrelevent to the point. Guild Wars used to be a multiplayer game with a single player option. Now because of heroes it is a single player game with a multiplayer option REGARDLESS of anything else. There is a HUGE HUGE difference and it has all but killed the game for me and everybody I used to play with right alongside Anet's destruction of PvP which heroes also contributed to.

Age · Jun 18, 2009, 01:05 AM // 01:05

It also made recruiting a lot harder as grouping was one of the best ways to pick up new guildies.Guilds have mostly dried up unless you do some sort of pvp.Yes it took away the social aspect of the game as when I do play I find myself talking to AI.I don't get this when playing PWI as i have world chat to listen to when solo questing.

Daesu · Jun 18, 2009, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

There is a HUGE HUGE difference and it has all but killed the game for me and everybody I used to play with right alongside Anet's destruction of PvP which heroes also contributed to.

This is ridiculous. If you can't beat a hero in pvp then you should give up on pvp in the first place. Heroes are so dumb that anyone with half a brian can beat them. Heroes use roughly the same AI as NM monsters except they have no pve skills, no extra energy regen, only level 20, and you can't be mobbed at the start. If you cant even beat that, then you should give up on pve too.

People who complain that heroes destroy the social aspect of the game are either:

1. Lazy - Do not want to lift a finger to help themselves find a good guild. They rather QQ in the forums because they enjoy showering themselves with self-pity. Most of the anti-hero people belong in this group.

OR

2. Lame - They get kicked out of every good guild they tried. Rare, but there must be some.

There is no excuse to blame heroes for their own failure to help themselves find other human players to play with. If even I can find a good guild in minutes, anyone can.

Laraja · Jun 18, 2009, 02:18 AM // 02:18

In my opinion it's the people themselves who are killing this game and people who take the idea of being anonymous to mean they can be complete asshats.

When I first started GW about 15 months ago, I got stuck in so many bad, horrible horrible PUGS with name calling, bitching, whining, moaning, people screamining at each other. I'd get screamed at for watching the cutscenes because I was new and had never seen them. I was NEW for god's sake. I had never played the game but I was expected to be as experienced as someone who had been playing since day one. Unless you were running a second character (or third or forth) through the game, you were doomed to get some dickwad making snide nasty remarks.

PEOPLE and their inability to even had a modicum of decency killed grouping for me. A decent, polite group is a freakin' oxymoron. I said screw them all, and thanks to Anet I had a semi decent option of Henchmen. I didn't even have heros at the time because I didn't have NF or EotN at the time, just Factions and Prophs.

Now things are a bit different. I'm a decent player and have HM unlocked on all the campaigns, but this is due to finding (it took me over a year) a decent guild who doesn't put up with hissy fit bull$hit.

So for me heros and henchmen didn't kill the game, it freakin' saved it.

DreamWind · Jun 18, 2009, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

This is ridiculous. If you can't beat a hero in pvp then you should give up on pvp in the first place.

You apparently completely missed the point. Not surprising coming from a hero supporter. Heroes contributed to the death of PvP. There is no dispute about that even amongst most people who disagree with me. It has nothing to do with how hard to beat they are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

1. Lazy - Do not want to lift a finger to help themselves find a good guild. They rather QQ in the forums because they enjoy showering themselves with self-pity. Most of the anti-hero people belong in this group.

Theres no need to find a good guild anymore. If anything, many of the pro-hero people fit your first criteria nicely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

2. Lame - They get kicked out of every good guild they tried. Rare, but there must be some.

This, again, fits mostly pro-hero people. They use heroes because they might have got kicked out of a guild or pug (because they suck too bad to be in any decent guild or pug), then they come on these forums and proclaim people suck and heroes were a godsend, when in reality they sucked and the people telling them so were probably the actual godsend.

Long story short, this game was best when it was a multiplayer game. Heroes contributed to GW being a singleplayer game, and as a singleplayer game it lacks in comparison to most other singleplayer games.

Daesu · Jun 18, 2009, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Long story short, this game was best when it was a multiplayer game. Heroes contributed to GW being a singleplayer game, and as a singleplayer game it lacks in comparison to most other singleplayer games.

Are you reduced to simply stating your opinion without backing them up?

How is this a singleplayer game when my guild's schedule is packed with events every day of the week? How is this a singleplayer game when I see lots of pugs/players forming groups for zmission and zquests every day? How is this a singleplayer game when I see so many active guilds recruiting in our alliance, in these forums, and in the game?

Too bad but you sound like the single guy sitting in a corner in a packed party. Instead of getting to know people all around you, you decided to just sit there and qq about yourself.

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 18, 2009, 05:16 AM // 05:16

I wouldn't PLAY GW if not for heroes. There seems to be some sort of attitude that all MMOs and people who play them want to be social. I have ONE person that I play with most of the time and that's it. We each take three heroes.

Some people DO play MMOs for social interaction. There is nothing wrong with that. But those people aren't the only people playing and they aren't the only ones who have a say.

You need to cater to BOTH groups. That's what Z-quests were intended to do. That and Nicolas the Traveler.

But just because GW was one way once upon a time, and it evolved into something that other people besides "you" want to play, don't make it out to be a bad thing. I'm not a 20 year old, I'm closer to 50 (much closer) and frankly, the rude, obnoxious nature of the kids in pugs is a complete turn off. You may love bickering and stupidity, but I don't. It's not how I choose to relax.

Heroes didn't kill GW. It MADE GW. It separates it from other games of the ilk, opening up availability to a lot of players who wouldn't play most MMOs.

There are SO MANY MMOs floating around. GW is strong because it's different. I can't name five MMOs that are as strong as GW more than four years after first becoming available.

The fact is, for a game this old, GW is REMARKABLY robust. Nothing killed it, and if it's still going, then they've done more right than wrong.

Live with it.

fenix · Jun 18, 2009, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Are you reduced to simply stating your opinion without backing them up?

How is this a singleplayer game when my guild's schedule is packed with events every day of the week? How is this a singleplayer game when I see lots of pugs/players forming groups for zmission and zquests every day? How is this a singleplayer game when I see so many active guilds recruiting in our alliance, in these forums, and in the game?

Too bad but you sound like the single guy sitting in a corner in a packed party. Instead of getting to know people all around you, you decided to just sit there and qq about yourself.

Have you only played GW for a year and a half or something?

If you were around 3 years ago, you'd understand this thread. Clearly, you didn't, and as such do not understand it. Best bet is to stop posting.

Daesu · Jun 18, 2009, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Have you only played GW for a year and a half or something?

If you were around 3 years ago, you'd understand this thread. Clearly, you didn't, and as such do not understand it. Best bet is to stop posting.

I have been playing this game for more than 4 years and clearly you have nothing to contribute to this thread, so stop posting.

bhavv · Jun 18, 2009, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Heroes did not destroy any aspect of the game and they were in fact good for PVP.

If H/H parties were still allowed in HA and GVG, there would actually be a lot more people playing them.

The clever approach would have been to make a seperate HA and GVG game for parties with AI characters, and a seperate one for full player teams.

H/H parties in GVG would only be allowed to play unrated and unranked games, H/H in HA would be limited to fewer maps that are suited to H/H play and no final HoH map with the chest.

People would still enjoy H/H play in PVP with these limitations for faction and fame farming. And dont go saying that it would cheapen the fame title track when that has already been done with spikes, IWAY, Mathway, old school Vimway etc etc.

I enjoy playing 1v1 H/H GVG scrimmages, and enjoyed H/H in HA too while it was there.

Of course before you start whining at my suggestions, seperation of full player parties and AI parties would enable you to PVP without facing any AI teams.

I dont understand why anti AI players should be determining how others enjoy playing the game. For me, all I want is heroes with my chosen skillbars. They play what I want and however I want without complaining, going AFK, or rage quitting on me.

fenix · Jun 18, 2009, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I have been playing this game for more than 4 years and clearly you have nothing to contribute to this thread, so stop posting.

If you had any idea what you were talking about I wouldn't need to question it. Saying that the game isn't dead just because your guild isn't dead, and a couple of zquest zones aren't dead isn't an argument.

Look at the whole game. Player numbers have plummeted. You used to find large numbers of players, everywhere, now all the towns are empty except for the few larger ones, and zquest ones.

Clearly the game is dying, and heroes are a reason for it. If you don't realise this, then really, stop posting. You can blatantly ignore the information that people are posting, and sprout nonsense.